Arguments about fairness and balance
Cut from article:
- detailing the ugly truths of the Moon family. According to her,
I just reverted a pile of moonie PR from a user who apparently had no other edits at all.
This article is heavily biased and obviously is only intended to show a negative one-sided view of the eldest son of a world-renown religious founder. I demand that this article be edited for fairness and objectivity. Possible examples are available in the history.
Thank you for your commitment to fairness and objectivity and repecting basic human rights. --Objectivity 00:16, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
The user exucmember pretends to want to be a crusader for objectivity and justice. However, he has a spiteful agenda apparently based on resentment toward Rev. Moon's family. He should not be allowed to edit articles related to Rev. Moon's family until he can overcome his resentment. --True Love 14:09, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Encyclopedias are not written based on the resentment of former members and former wives. In a world of human suffering, a man is not defined by a failed marriage. Mr. Hyo Jin Moon has suffered dearly over his divorce. Exucmember talks about hiding embarassing facts. Those alleged embarassing facts are written about in books and websites and are fodder for a cottage industry of resentment and hatred. If exucmember's agenda of defamation would be allowed to proceed, then, in fairness Wikipedia's academic standard for everyone would be that of a supermarket tabloid aimed at destroying human dignity and fairness. --Higher Ground 14:38, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- You cannot delete facts about a controversial figure that are critical just because you are trying to "protect" that person from "defamation." That's not the way Wikipedia works. You also can't pretend that a pivotal 15-year period of someone's life didn't happen by deleting it. Your actions are far out of line, bordering on vandalism.
- Though irrelevant, it happens that you are 100% wrong about me; I am not resentful toward Hyo Jin Moon, and have not made any edits on any page out of resentment or spite. You could easily have figured that out if you had gone to my page and looked at my contributions, which are quite balanced. My initial impetus for editing was as a response to the wholly inappropriate religious bigotry ("moonie brainwashing") toward the Unification Church I saw on the New Hope Academy page and some other pages. Go to the history on the New Hope Academy page and look at my edits, and read the Talk:New Hope Academy page. Look at my edits on a number of other pages regarding the pejorative "Moonie." On the UTS page I added the accreditation by Middle States and the degree prgrams offered (and added nothing "negative"). You can also find my edits which counter and expose the POV and deceptions committed by editors who are secular anti-cultists.
- When there are two sides to an issue, Wikipedia requires that the arguments from both sides be presented with proper documentation. Perhaps you should research what Hyo Jin has said about his pivotal behavior that has led to Unificationists seeing Hyun Jin as the likely (second generation) successor instead of Hyo Jin. Hyo Jin may have said something about his substance abuse, violent behavior, and extra-marital sex, and it would be good to put something in the article from his point of view that gives the article more balance. You have to have sources, however. You can't just make up a defense on your own, putting words in his mouth and thoughts in his head; even if it were well-done, that would come under what Wikipedia bans as "original research."
- Personally, I would like to see what Hyo Jin or Sun Myung Moon or other important figures in the "movement" have had to say about Hyo Jin's downfall. I think it would improve the article. -Exucmember 18:11, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Please cease and desist from posting and re-posting information which only seeks to further damage the reputation of someone whose crime in life was having a failed marriage and watching the family he loved fall apart do to his own mistakes. Unless you want to document the stories of 50% of American Families, I ask you to leave the material in the recycle bin and go on with your life.
In case you are bored and have nothing to do please direct everyone viewing this page where we can go to read in detail everything about all of the mistakes you have ever made. Not written by you of course, but by people who stand to profit by seeing your reputation defined only by your mistakes, people who get a rush or a high by adding insult to the injury of others. I'm sure that when you present that website link you will make sure that 5% of the document states some basic biographical facts about you so we can at least know where you live who you work for and who are immediate family members are. Looking forward to that post with great anticipation knowing that you are such a man of high integrity and morality who is not afraid to authentically reveal all of your greatest sins. That way anyone who wants to judge you can put themselves in the place of God and just in case your errors are offensive to heaven, we can begin the process of what you will face when you go to the spiritual world anyway. I'm sure you will want to take advantage of such pivotal opportunity in the name of fairness and objectivity.--Objectivity 23:06, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I went back to review your edits on this topic and noticed that you took an article which was unbalanced with facts and negativity and added a several paragraph of details by generated by disgrunted former employees and the like to make it more negative than it already was. This is not necessary for an ENCYCLOPEDIA article. I recommend that you channel your energies where they will be appreciated: SUPERMARKET TABLOIDS. Stop pretending to be a friend of the unification movement when your only intention is to hurt the founder and his family by selfishly reminding them of family heartbreak and personal tragedy and spreading it without any honorable purpose throughout the world on the internet on a site which has earned its reputation based on fairness and professional academic standards. --Higher Ground 23:34, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- Folks, please don't delete sourced information just because it is offensive. Please assume good faith on the part of your fellow editors. This subject is a public figure about whom things have been written in reliable sources. Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy requires that we report all notable viewpoints. On the other hand, we mustn't indclude unsourced derogatory information. Most of this article appears well-sourced. Let's focus on either sourcing or removing the informaiton without sources, but let's leave the information that is referenced. -Will Beback 23:49, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- There was a big celebration and special ceremony when he had his first son, with talk from his father about the "providential" significance of the completion of 3 generations (in spite of the fact that Sun Myung Moon's other sons and daughters already had male and female children).
The "in spite of" clause implies that church teaching is inconsistent, but ignores Rev. Moon's teachings.
The Messiah's eldest son's first son, is what is meant by "completion". There's no point mentioning the special ceremony, if the UC viewpoint about it is not mentioned - other than (1) it exists and (2) the contributor of the passage wants to insinuate something.
Anyway, the whole article needs a rewrite.
Hyo Jin Moon is not Rev. Moon's eldest son but is the eldest son of Rev. & Mrs. Moon.
There were hopes that he would grow into a position as a major church leader, but these were dependent entirely on his own responsibility. They were not a given, nor was he considered a heir apparent. Rather, Rev. Moon said he was "looking for someone among his sons" who could take on the mantle of leadership. Currently this looks more like Hyun Jin Moon (Harvard MBA) or Hyung Jin Moon (dresses like monk). Note the letter G in the latter name.
The decision to marry Hyo Jin Moon to a girl in her mid-teens may seem strange to outsiders, but it makes more sense in the context of the church's teachings on the Providence of restoration.
No exceptions are made about purity vs. adultery. Anyone can be forgiven, but they still have to give up the sinful behavior and "indemnity must be paid" somehow.
Church opponents regard HJM's failures as a sign that his father couldn't be the Messiah, on such grounds as:
- a real Messiah would not assign a successor who would turn out so bad (church POV is that HJM was neven assigned as a successor)
- a real Messiah's children should be sinless (church teaching is that like Adam who was born sinless, the True Children aren't immune to temptation but must withstand it and also must grow to perfection, i.e., sinlessness is not maturity)
- HJN's sins and crimes were tolerated, because his father did the same things (church POV is that Rev. Moon is innocent of such charges, and that HJN was merely given many extra chances to repent)
Whatever M. Pretorious "revealed" to HJN is merely her version of events and is largely denied by the church. Much went on at Manhattan Center that was counter to church teachings, and HJN was not surrounded by pure, wonderful noble people.
Bottom line is that his tragic life is not a reflection on his parents. Nansook Hong's book, while containing much accurate info, is above all a one-sided condemnation intended more to disparage Rev. & Mrs. Moon than to tell her own story. If anything, it shows what happens when parents don't help their children (the Hongs apparently never taught Nansook anything about how to deal with her future husband or in-laws). And the excerpts I read online today at Amazon from her book show (1) no understanding of church doctrine and (2) no communication with her parents or friends after her marriage (though I only read 5% to 10% of the book).
Contrast this with the mother of Hak Ja Han, who not only prepared her daughter for a heavenly marriage but stayed as close as possible to her after her marriage to Rev. Moon.
It's all about human responsibility and spiritual growth, people! --Uncle Ed 03:34, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
- Ed, you've gone way overboard with the "heir apparent" issue. It is true that the phrase is not quite accurate when applied to a successor for Rev. Moon. You are probably right that critics prefer the phrase because it implies that a decision regarding next-generation successor was made (when no final decision was ever made, or has yet been made). Beyond that you're going to far.
- The reference to the completion of 3 generations ceremony is important. It does not imply that church teaching is inconsistent! (But if you could so misunderstand the implication, others might too, so the explanation needs to be filled out.) The implication is that the first son is regarded as significant. A generation is defined as becoming established in terms of first son, not first daughter, not second daughter or son. So the third generation is defined by the first son of the first son, regardless of whether another third generation child actually is born first.
- This is consistent with Korean traditions, which is important. All members who understood the basics of how very much came from Korean culture were not surprised by this ceremony and declaration. As far as what's consistent with church teachings, one could make an argument that Rev. Moon could just as easily have interpreted the birth of the first third-generation child as being providentially significant in terms of showing the importance of the role of women or of Abel (or both).
- If someone knows the reason according to church teachings that Hyo Jin seemed to be forgiven more easily (without having to "give up the sinful behavior") than ordinary members, please add it to the article.
- It sounds like you (Ed) are saying that people at the Manhattan Center influenced Hyo Jin toward his wayward behavior. My memory is that members (including some I knew for years) were willing to go along with his behavior because of Rev. Moon's teaching that you shouldn't "disunite" with your central figure no matter what. -Exucmember 02:51, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, that is more like it: "went along with" rather than "influenced him toward" is how I would put it. We should probably mention Rev. Moon's statement that a "particular 36 Blessed Couple" was assigned the responsibility of raising Hyo Jin Nim (but apparently gave up or otherwise failed); that would make an interesting story.
- Hearsay evidence gleaned from my fellow church members tells me that the True Children were considered more "examples we should follow" or "people from whom we should seek guidance for our own lives" rather than "immature brothers and sisters whom we should help True Parents raise". This is still a controversial point within the church, which has gotten no play in the press.
- BTW, Rev. & Mrs. Moon have 14 children: The second daughter died in infancy and usually is not mentioned, but Rev. Kwak confirmed the birth in a Today's World article explaining the providential significance of the names of the 7 boys and 7 girls. The second son's death (in his teens in 1983) is better known (Heung Jin Moon), as well as the son who died in Las Vegas. --Uncle Ed 13:51, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
- Anything of significance or interest like the point you mentioned would most likely be a welcome addition to Hyo Jin's biography here. I added some things that were easy to document from Nansook's book, but I'd prefer the article didn't seem like it's just a discussion of his weaknesses and problems; I assume someone will fill out the article with other material and make it more well-rounded. This has already started with the mention of the trip to Africa.
- The second daughter, who died in infancy, was talked about among the members in Korea in the late 80s, but she was usually not counted. In Jin was always called the "second daughter." Has this changed? A number of pages make reference to the children, so this should be consistent throughout Wikipedia. If In Jin is the "third daughter," perhaps a footnote can clarify.
- Your mentioning "a controversial point within the church, which has gotten no play in the press" raises a very important issue. Sometimes the press latches onto stories about the Unification Church that have a sensational appeal but no substance, or there is no reliable evidence about something that may have happened decades ago, or the claims or implications are greatly exaggerated, or presented so far out of context as to be essentially false. Meanwhile, genuinely important issues that are controversial among thoughtful members are completely ignored. Perhaps mentioning any such issues would undermine the stereotype of the "brainwashed moonie." -Exucmember 17:06, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, sir! If you say so! Your wish is my command!! ;-)
According to his ex-wife's book, Rev. Moon considered True Mother to be his successor as church leader: "Reverend Moon implies that the True Mother will rule when he ascends into Heaven."  --Uncle Ed (talk) 02:14, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
- For more about issues regarding Rev. Moon's successor as leader of the Unification Movement, see Successor of Sun Myung Moon - which may or may not be maintained as a standalone article. --Uncle Ed (talk) 12:14, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
I find that as a UC member I am too emotionally involved to work on the articles on Rev. Moon's family, other members might not feel the same however. Anyway I think there are serious problems with this article relative to WP policy. It opens up: "Hyo Jin Moon (born December 3, 1962) is a musician and multimedia executive producer." Hyo Jin is certainly not notable for these things. Neither are his problems and personal behavior so very notable. The article seems to be saying that he is important because he should have become an important church leader but so far has not. I'm sure that somewhere in WP policy there's one that says you can't write an article about what someone isn't. Wishing everyone well. Steve Dufour 02:06, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
- This article does read like a hit-piece now. Even if everything the article says is true or at least verifiable there we should not be creating a bill of indictment. Or giving so much detail about his problems. Let me see if I can shortern it. ·:·Will Beback ·:· 11:30, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Born to be wild?
- "[Hyo Jin] grew up believing that there were no consequences for his misdeeds, and his parents, and the church hierarchy, did nothing to disabuse him of that notion."
This rings true to me. Many members felt they were "not in a position" to correct any lapses by the "sinless" True Children.
But this seems like a tragic (if typical) misunderstanding of the responsibility of the general membership. My understanding is that members should have helped the Moons raise their children.
In any case, it must be emphasized that church doctrine never said that the True Children were perfect. That is flatly contradictory to [[Unification theology], which clearly indicates that perfection is the final of three Stages of Growth; see Principle of Creation.
As a young member in the 1970s and 1980s, I repeatedly heard perplexing references to the "perfect" children in the True Family. I often asked people if they thought Rev. and Mrs. Moon's children were born "at the top of the completion stage".
I have seen references in Rev. Moon's speeches to back up my contention that it was some combination of the general membership and at least one "36 Blessed Couple" who were charged with raising Hyo Jin Moon and his siblings. It was certainly not any official church teaching that they were to "allowed to do whatever they wished".
In my opinion, that is rank heresy and also a repetition of the tragic situation of the Fall of Man. Angels should have dissuaded Adam and Eve from following Lucifer's temptation. (I'll check and see if this is doctrine or just my opinion.) --Uncle Ed (talk) 02:23, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
- Dr. Chang Shik Yang: "From a Principle point of view, things that should not happen have happened in the family of True Parents, and that makes us all very sad. I think the important thing is that the problems in the True Family have not occurred just because of individual problems of the children. There is also the factor that True Parents have loved us, their Cain children, to the extent that they were not able to wholly take care of their own children. In that sense they sacrificed their own children so that they could completely love us, their Cain children. Also as a result, their children felt a great deal of alienation. There was also the impact of the environment in which they were living, the environment of American society. All these factors contributed to the result that we see."  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ed Poor (talk • contribs) 03:04, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Accusations about his father
Cut from article:
- According to Hyo Jin's former assistant Madelene Pretorious:
He learned, apparently from a family member in 1992, that the long-denied accounts of Moon's sexual rites with early female initiates were true. "When Hyo Jin found out about his father's 'purification' rituals, that took a lot out of wind out of his sails," she said. In late 1994, during conversations in Hyo Jin's suite at the New Yorker Hotel, "he confided a lot of things to me," Pretorious continued. Hyo Jin had discovered, too, that Moon had fathered a child out of wedlock in the early 1970s. Moon arranged for the child to be raised by his longtime lieutenant Bo Hi Pak, Pretorious said. The boy - now a young man - had confronted Hyo Jin, seeking recognition as Hyo Jin's half-brother. Pretorious said she later corroborated the story with other church members.
First of all, I don't see how Hong's report of what Pretorious said about Rev. Moon is relevant to a biography of Hyo Jin Moon. Would the contributor who included this quote please explain what bearing it has on Hyo Jin Moon's life? For example, did either Pretorious or Hong say that hearing these stories prompted HJM to start or stop any kind of behavior? If so, we should say something like:
- According to Hong, when her husband heard confirmation from his assistant about his Father's past, he (1) started drinking more (2) became financially irresponsible, or (3) whatever.
I haven't read the book other than excerpts online, so I don't know if this point is in it.
Secondly, I don't think that negative information about Sun Myung Moon properly belongs in a biography about his son. Would WP:BLP allow hearsay like this? Hong said that Pretorious said that Hyo Jin believed X, Y, Z. I can't tell if that's 3rd hand or 4th hand!
If anyone wants to put disparaging information about Rev. Moon into Wikipedia while he's alive, it has to be sourced in accordance with the standards for "biographies of living persons". --Uncle Ed (talk) 12:07, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
- Ed, the key point in the passage is "that took a lot out of wind out of his sails." It's right there in the quotation. Also, it was the basis for Hyo Jin Moon's justification of infidelity (cited in Hong's book).
- Are you one actually denying that Rev. Moon fathered a child out of wedlock?!? Even after Nan Sook Hong related in detail what Sun Myung Moon and also Hak Ja Han told her directly about it, and about how she was embarrassed to hear it directly from them (especially from "True Father")? Or is it possible you never read this in her book? You owe it to yourself to hear what she has to say?
- Can you actually deny it even after Un Jin Moon announced Rev. Moon's illegitimate son by name on 60 Minutes?!?
- I personally didn't know any well-informed members after these two events who still denied it.
- Leadership of the worldwide student branch of the movement - the branch bringing in the most members around that time - was obviously significant. If you didn't think so at the time (revisionism is a different matter), you may have been a minority of one. -Exucmember (talk) 00:47, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
http://www.unification.net/hyojinmoon/HyoJinNimAscension_20080317.pdf Family Federation for World Peace and Unification 3224 16 th St. NW, Washington, DC 20010 (202) 319-3200 fax 202 319-3201 e-mail firstname.lastname@example.org North America Headquarters Dr. Chang Shik Yang, Continental Director Rev. Michael Jenkins, President NHQ20070317 MEMORANDUM To: District Directors, State Directors, All Blessed Central Families From: Dr. Chang Shik Yang and Rev. Michael Jenkins Date: March 17, 2008 Re: Ascension of Hyo Jin Moon We ask that all Blessed Families and members join in prayer at this time upon the occasion of our beloved elder brother Mr. Hyo Jin Moon's passing into the spirit world. Hyo Jin Nim ascended at 9:46 AM (Korean time) on March 17, 2008. A world-level Seunghwa Ceremony will be held. We offer our deepest condolences and heart to embrace True Parents and True Family at this time. 1) Hyo Jin Nim's Passing and Special Calligraphy of True Parents Mr. Hyo Jin Moon passed into the spirit world on the morning of March 17, 2008, due to a heart attack (myocardial infarction). True Parents wrote a special message for him: Shimcheon Kaebang Won Choonghyo Kaemoon Joo (????????? ?????????) which can be translated into English (approximately) as "He will open and liberate the deepest heaven and turn it into a flower garden as the lord who opens the gates of loyalty and filial piety." 2) Special Prayers to be held in Belvedere, Washington DC National Cathedral and all District Headquarters Churches. Each District Headquarters will create a special altar and organize continuous prayer during this time. A special service will be held at each location corresponding to the time of the Seung Hwa Ceremony in Korea (Korea time: 7:00 AM, March 19 th - this corresponds to 6:00 PM Eastern Time on March 18.) Rev. Grodner will be responsible for the special altar and prayer schedule at Belvedere, Rev. Francis will be responsible for the altar at the Washington DC Family Church National Cathedral. Special services should also be conducted by church pastors and ministers around the nation, under the guidance of the District Directors. All members are urged to participate in the prayer services and schedule their attendance with the District Headquarters. 3) Seunghwa Ceremony in Korea a) Date: Wednesday, March 19, 2008, 7:00 AM (Korean time) b) Location: Main Hall, Cheongpyeong Heaven and Earth Training Center c) Participants: Regional presidents, national messiahs, leaders from overseas, local leaders and members. d) Attire: i) Men: Black or dark-colored suit, white necktie ii) Women: White-colored hanbok (holy robes) • White or cream-colored suits should not be worn this time. 4) Wonjeon Ceremony a) Date: Wednesday, March 19, 2008, 11:00 a.m. (Korean time) b) Location: Paju Wonjeon Sincerely, Dr. Chang Shik Yang Rev. Michael Jenkins Continental Director President FFWPU North America FFWPU USA
-- Damian J. Anderson Damian.Anderson@gmail.com
His Second Marriage
The article leaves out his second marriage, which was undoubtedly a happier one than the ill-fated marriage to Nansook Hong. He seems to have grown up some, nourished by a woman who better understood his inner demons. Here is from a Unification source:
- Hyo Jin Moon remarried in 1999. He has four children with his second wife Yun Ah Choi. Recently he took some positions in media enterprises and accompanied his mother on travels to Africa where he delivered public addresses in several nations.
- I saw him a few times when he spoke to the membership in Korea. He seemed to be genuinely concerned to make up for mistakes of his past. He apologized to the members. He expressed gratitude and respect for his parents and said he would be support his Father as long as he lives. 
- WP:RS for this? www.foreignlands.org doesn't appear to be particularly reliable. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 03:42, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
- Dark Side of Rev. Moon: Generation Next Robert Parry 1997. Consortiumnews.com, The Consortium for Independent Journalism, Inc. Quotations are from In the Shadow of the Moons.